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Philosophical Discourses on In the Groove
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IHYD.Tiza
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0. PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:53 pm    Post subject: Philosophical Discourses on In the Groove Reply with quote

How can we know that the In the Groove machine we play on truely exists, and is not a mere phantasm of our collective consciousness?
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J. S. Mill
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1. PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would make you think that it did not exist, given the vivacity of our perception?
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DJZylch
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2. PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiba changed his name... coooooool.

P.S. what if YOU don't exist E11.gif
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IHYD.Blake
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3. PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesnt exist, and we have a whole forum about it!
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Sophos
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4. PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cogito, ergo sum.

For those of you who only speak leet-speak, I believe the translation is: E19.gif
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J. S. Mill
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5. PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sophos wrote:
Cogito, ergo sum.

There is no comma, and it has no relevance to this discussion at all.
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kahuna
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6. PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It only exists when you are there to play on it.
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7. PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Søren Kierkegaard wrote:
Sophos wrote:
Cogito, ergo sum.

There is no comma,


Better fix Wikipedia then.

Søren Kierkegaard wrote:

and it has no relevance to this discussion at all.


How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that?
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Rainault
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8. PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sophos wrote:
How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that?


As true as that may be, each of us individually still cannot prove that they do; we can only say that we perceive them to be sentient. Therefore, we cannot say that the In The Groove machine exists; only the machine can state with certainty that itself exists.
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9. PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sophos wrote:
Better fix Wikipedia then.

I'll be happy too, classical latin has no comma's.

Søren Kierkegaard wrote:
How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that?

That's both false and irrelevant.
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10. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Søren Kierkegaard wrote:
Søren Kierkegaard wrote:
How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that?

That's both false and irrelevant.


TIME PARADOX.
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Sophos
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11. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Søren Kierkegaard wrote:

Sophos wrote:

How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that?

That's both false and irrelevant.


How can you proove it's false if you can't proove that the machine exists in the first place?

Rainault wrote:

As true as that may be, each of us individually still cannot prove that they do; we can only say that we perceive them to be sentient. Therefore, we cannot say that the In The Groove machine exists; only the machine can state with certainty that itself exists.


Ah, but does not the machine itself state such a fact? If one should watch a machine without disturbing it, eventually it shall communicate the fact that is indeed currently present in various places of commerce.
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Rainault
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12. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to be able to separate what actually is and what you perceive to be. We may perceive the machine stating that it exists, but we cannot say with absolute certainty that the machine does indeed exist. One can only assert that oneself exists, because of "Cogito ergo sum". Even then, only the person stating his/her own existence can absolutely agree with that statement, since anyone else only perceives the person to assert his/her existence, and because perception is relative and thus uncertain, a perception of an existence must always be put under question, no matter how seemingly assured that existence is.
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13. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acidosis Aceteceliciticus Tres Dio

I iss speeling Laton gud.

In the Groove exists - it is US that are part of his nihilistic fantasy.

Hmm... and what else...

There was something else that I need to complete this post... Oh, yeah!

IN BEFORE THE LOCK! biggrin.gif
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14. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Matrix has you.
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J. S. Mill
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15. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would this thread be locked just because you aren't following it?

Rainault wrote:
You have to be able to separate what actually is and what you perceive to be. We may perceive the machine stating that it exists, but we cannot say with absolute certainty that the machine does indeed exist. One can only assert that oneself exists, because of "Cogito ergo sum". Even then, only the person stating his/her own existence can absolutely agree with that statement, since anyone else only perceives the person to assert his/her existence, and because perception is relative and thus uncertain, a perception of an existence must always be put under question, no matter how seemingly assured that existence is.

Yes, very well said. But, aren't we equally certain not that the machine itself exists, but that it appears to exist to us?

Sophos wrote:
How can you proove it's false if you can't proove that the machine exists in the first place?

Because your statement was of the affirmative form (machines are sentient). This statement is false if there is no reason to believe it is true. There is no reason to believe it is true (by Skepticism), therefore, by Modus Ponens, the affirmation is false.
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16. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hay guys i heard latin is dead
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Zeta Aspect
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17. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plato derived three tests for knowing:

1) You must believe the statement,
2) Your belief must be true,
----Public
----Independent
----Eternal
3) Your true belief must be justified.
----Logic
----Empirical Evidence
----Memory
----Authority


I believe the ITG machine exists.

My belief that the ITG machine exists is true:
----the ITG machine can be accessed by the public
----the ITG machine is not affected by other people's beliefs
----the ITG machine exists at this time forever.

My true belief that the ITG machine exists is justified:
----I play ITG multiple times, and each time, it fails me on Pandemonium: empirical data shows that it exists (if it passed me, it wouldn't exist, because it is untrue at this moment in time that I can pass Pandemonium, which would be a logical fallacy),
----I remember playing ITG,
----The arcade owner tells me that there is an ITG machine.

The statement that the ITG machine exists is fact.

This statement is better supported by attempting to support the converse:

I believe that the ITG machine doesn't exist

My belief that the ITG machine does not exist is true
----the ITG machine can be accessed by the public (does not support statement)
----the ITG machine is not affected by other people's beliefs
----the ITG machine does not exist at this time forever.

My true belief that the ITG machine does not exist is justified:
----I play ITG multiple times, and each time, it fails me on Pandemonium: empirical data shows that it exists (if it passed me, it wouldn't exist, because it is untrue at this moment in time that I can pass Pandemonium, which would be a logical fallacy) (does not support statement),
----I remember playing ITG (does not support statement),
----The arcade owner tells me that there is an ITG machine (does not support statement).

The statement that the ITG machine does not exist cannot be justified and is not fact.
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18. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rainault wrote:
You have to be able to separate what actually is and what you perceive to be.


Why should we separate what is and what we perceive is to be? For if there truly is a part of reality that we cannot perceive, then why should it concern us at all? If it cannot be perceived, then it is inconsequential and might as well not exist. Therefore reality should be what we perceive, and nothing further.
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J. S. Mill
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19. PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sophos wrote:
If it cannot be perceived, then it is inconsequential and might as well not exist.

Why does that follow?

ZetaAspect wrote:
The statement that the ITG machine exists is fact.

What do you mean by it's a fact? Is it a synthetic fact? If so, how do you know that your sense experience is adequately reporting the true nature of reality; how do you know you aren't being decieved by an omnipotent deciever? Plato's theory of knowledge never considered Cartesian doubt, why is it applicable in Modern Philosophy after the introduction of this concept?

I'll readily accept that you can prove that the machine APPEARS to exist to you, but I won't accept that it is a fact of the matter that it REALLY exists.
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