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IHYD.Tiza Trick Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Location: Escondido, CA |
0. Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: Philosophical Discourses on In the Groove |
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How can we know that the In the Groove machine we play on truely exists, and is not a mere phantasm of our collective consciousness? _________________
You KNOW! |
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J. S. Mill Maniac Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Location: New York, New York |
1. Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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What would make you think that it did not exist, given the vivacity of our perception? _________________
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DJZylch Trick Member
Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Location: Consulting my muse |
2. Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Kiba changed his name... coooooool.
P.S. what if YOU don't exist _________________
cartoonhero91089 wrote: | u put ur RFI u put ur RFO u put ur RFI and ya shake it all about.. | Miike wrote: | Hello Kitty wouldn't be half as cool if it was like, Hello Parakeet | Evilhawk 78 wrote: | That's not fair! That's like trading a Charizard for a Weedle! |
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IHYD.Blake Vivid Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2004 Location: Solar City, California |
3. Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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It doesnt exist, and we have a whole forum about it! _________________
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Sophos Trick Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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4. Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Cogito, ergo sum.
For those of you who only speak leet-speak, I believe the translation is: |
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J. S. Mill Maniac Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Location: New York, New York |
5. Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Sophos wrote: | Cogito, ergo sum. |
There is no comma, and it has no relevance to this discussion at all. _________________
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kahuna Trick Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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6. Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: |
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It only exists when you are there to play on it. _________________
The oldest DDR player in Grand Rapids |
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Sophos Trick Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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7. Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Søren Kierkegaard wrote: | Sophos wrote: | Cogito, ergo sum. |
There is no comma,
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Better fix Wikipedia then.
Søren Kierkegaard wrote: |
and it has no relevance to this discussion at all. |
How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that? |
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Rainault Trick Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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8. Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Sophos wrote: | How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that? |
As true as that may be, each of us individually still cannot prove that they do; we can only say that we perceive them to be sentient. Therefore, we cannot say that the In The Groove machine exists; only the machine can state with certainty that itself exists. |
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J. S. Mill Maniac Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Location: New York, New York |
9. Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'll be happy too, classical latin has no comma's.
Søren Kierkegaard wrote: | How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that? |
That's both false and irrelevant. _________________
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Synaesthesia Trick Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
10. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Søren Kierkegaard wrote: | Søren Kierkegaard wrote: | How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that? |
That's both false and irrelevant. |
TIME PARADOX. _________________
im a lasagna whale
G_G |
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Sophos Trick Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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11. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Søren Kierkegaard wrote: |
Sophos wrote: |
How so? ITG machines employ AI techniques so advanced that they're sentient. Didn't you know that? |
That's both false and irrelevant. |
How can you proove it's false if you can't proove that the machine exists in the first place?
Rainault wrote: |
As true as that may be, each of us individually still cannot prove that they do; we can only say that we perceive them to be sentient. Therefore, we cannot say that the In The Groove machine exists; only the machine can state with certainty that itself exists.
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Ah, but does not the machine itself state such a fact? If one should watch a machine without disturbing it, eventually it shall communicate the fact that is indeed currently present in various places of commerce. |
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Rainault Trick Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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12. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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You have to be able to separate what actually is and what you perceive to be. We may perceive the machine stating that it exists, but we cannot say with absolute certainty that the machine does indeed exist. One can only assert that oneself exists, because of "Cogito ergo sum". Even then, only the person stating his/her own existence can absolutely agree with that statement, since anyone else only perceives the person to assert his/her existence, and because perception is relative and thus uncertain, a perception of an existence must always be put under question, no matter how seemingly assured that existence is. |
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0rion Trick Member
Joined: 02 May 2005 Location: Kirby will explain it to you. |
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ViciousCB Trick Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Location: Canfield, Ohio |
14. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Matrix has you. _________________
I have never played a machine on joint premium...
Oh the horror. |
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J. S. Mill Maniac Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Location: New York, New York |
15. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Why would this thread be locked just because you aren't following it?
Rainault wrote: | You have to be able to separate what actually is and what you perceive to be. We may perceive the machine stating that it exists, but we cannot say with absolute certainty that the machine does indeed exist. One can only assert that oneself exists, because of "Cogito ergo sum". Even then, only the person stating his/her own existence can absolutely agree with that statement, since anyone else only perceives the person to assert his/her existence, and because perception is relative and thus uncertain, a perception of an existence must always be put under question, no matter how seemingly assured that existence is. |
Yes, very well said. But, aren't we equally certain not that the machine itself exists, but that it appears to exist to us?
Sophos wrote: | How can you proove it's false if you can't proove that the machine exists in the first place? |
Because your statement was of the affirmative form (machines are sentient). This statement is false if there is no reason to believe it is true. There is no reason to believe it is true (by Skepticism), therefore, by Modus Ponens, the affirmation is false. _________________
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DJX Trick Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Location: CA |
16. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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hay guys i heard latin is dead _________________
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Zeta Aspect Trick Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Location: Vancouver, Washington |
17. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Plato derived three tests for knowing:
1) You must believe the statement,
2) Your belief must be true,
----Public
----Independent
----Eternal
3) Your true belief must be justified.
----Logic
----Empirical Evidence
----Memory
----Authority
I believe the ITG machine exists.
My belief that the ITG machine exists is true:
----the ITG machine can be accessed by the public
----the ITG machine is not affected by other people's beliefs
----the ITG machine exists at this time forever.
My true belief that the ITG machine exists is justified:
----I play ITG multiple times, and each time, it fails me on Pandemonium: empirical data shows that it exists (if it passed me, it wouldn't exist, because it is untrue at this moment in time that I can pass Pandemonium, which would be a logical fallacy),
----I remember playing ITG,
----The arcade owner tells me that there is an ITG machine.
The statement that the ITG machine exists is fact.
This statement is better supported by attempting to support the converse:
I believe that the ITG machine doesn't exist
My belief that the ITG machine does not exist is true
----the ITG machine can be accessed by the public (does not support statement)
----the ITG machine is not affected by other people's beliefs
----the ITG machine does not exist at this time forever.
My true belief that the ITG machine does not exist is justified:
----I play ITG multiple times, and each time, it fails me on Pandemonium: empirical data shows that it exists (if it passed me, it wouldn't exist, because it is untrue at this moment in time that I can pass Pandemonium, which would be a logical fallacy) (does not support statement),
----I remember playing ITG (does not support statement),
----The arcade owner tells me that there is an ITG machine (does not support statement).
The statement that the ITG machine does not exist cannot be justified and is not fact. _________________
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Sophos Trick Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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18. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Rainault wrote: | You have to be able to separate what actually is and what you perceive to be.
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Why should we separate what is and what we perceive is to be? For if there truly is a part of reality that we cannot perceive, then why should it concern us at all? If it cannot be perceived, then it is inconsequential and might as well not exist. Therefore reality should be what we perceive, and nothing further. |
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J. S. Mill Maniac Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Location: New York, New York |
19. Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sophos wrote: | If it cannot be perceived, then it is inconsequential and might as well not exist. |
Why does that follow?
ZetaAspect wrote: | The statement that the ITG machine exists is fact. |
What do you mean by it's a fact? Is it a synthetic fact? If so, how do you know that your sense experience is adequately reporting the true nature of reality; how do you know you aren't being decieved by an omnipotent deciever? Plato's theory of knowledge never considered Cartesian doubt, why is it applicable in Modern Philosophy after the introduction of this concept?
I'll readily accept that you can prove that the machine APPEARS to exist to you, but I won't accept that it is a fact of the matter that it REALLY exists. _________________
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