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'Ivan
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Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Thailand |
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Irish.MTA (Retired?)
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Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: Clemson, SC |
21.  Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| 'Ivan wrote: | | djzmudpony wrote: | | I was playing around with quickly hitting the hand note while in the middle of jump hold. I'm sure this is old news, but I found ITG will still register that you're stepping on the hold as long as you get your foot back to the hold really fast. I suppose it's similar to how you could shuffle your steps around while holding a freeze in DDR. |
Same thing with DDR. Exact same thing.
Notice that holds and freeze arrows alike FADE out to Bad/NGs. |
Aye, it doesn't just give you an Bad/NG straight away. I'm sure everyone has seen a Hold/Freeze grey out and come back while shifting their weight. Another fun thing to do is to hit holds on three or four arrows with just your feet. If you hit each arrow seperately, but over and over quickly enough you can still get them without leaning over. It's not really all that useful for practical, but amusing nevertheless. I do it in Marathons when I don't feel like bending over.
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spidy
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Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Location: Missoula Montana |
| 22. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that the bar should never be used and should completely be taken off of the system. If your going to fall over or fail without it then either practice a little more or quit playing. Im sorry if this sounds really mean and i dont mean to offend anyone but i really disrespect anyone who uses it. Im from missoula montana and here youll never see anyone ever play with the bar....its looked down upon and found shameful so its a very uncommon occurence that youll see someone using it. I just recently made a trip to the spokane mall and noticed that everyone there used the bar...everyone. Even on 5-6 footers! Thats just pathetic...I mean what the frick! So i go up there AA max 300 (without the bar!) and come down and they rush to me and give me the " i could never do that without the bar" so basically i guess the only thing that i like about the bar is the fact that i can show people up once they use it. (again sorry if this made any bar rapers angry i just really dislike the use of the bar and even on things like 13 footers i still dont think they should be used...practice!) |
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DJTyrant
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Location: Ventura, CA |
| 23. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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spidy, have you even played ITG?
there's much more difficult stuff than MAX300 on ITG.
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spidy
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Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Location: Missoula Montana |
| 24. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course ive played ITG i bought it the day it came out. Im just explaing the fact that i dont like the bar period. Even though pandemonium or delirium are very hard if you can do it without the bar then i consider you a god if you do it with the bar i give you congrats but am disapointed...not mad...just disapointed thats all. |
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FujiFlame
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Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Location: Orlando, FL |
| 25. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| spidy wrote: | | I think that the bar should never be used and should completely be taken off of the system. If your going to fall over or fail without it then either practice a little more or quit playing. Im sorry if this sounds really mean and i dont mean to offend anyone but i really disrespect anyone who uses it. Im from missoula montana and here youll never see anyone ever play with the bar....its looked down upon and found shameful so its a very uncommon occurence that youll see someone using it. I just recently made a trip to the spokane mall and noticed that everyone there used the bar...everyone. Even on 5-6 footers! Thats just pathetic...I mean what the frick! So i go up there AA max 300 (without the bar!) and come down and they rush to me and give me the " i could never do that without the bar" so basically i guess the only thing that i like about the bar is the fact that i can show people up once they use it. (again sorry if this made any bar rapers angry i just really dislike the use of the bar and even on things like 13 footers i still dont think they should be used...practice!) |
LIK OMG U KAN AA MAX 300 WITHOUT UISNG THE BAR? THATS FWIGGIN UNBELIEVABLE UR UBER KOOLZ MAN!!1!!one!1!!
Seriously though. So can I, whoopdifukin doo, along with many others. Don't think your the only one out there who can make big accomplishments without the bar. You seriously disappoint me man, ur such a hipocrate. Do you realize that the comments "Im sorry if this sounds really mean and i dont mean to offend anyone" and "i really disrespect anyone who uses it" completely contradict eachother? I used to be a no bar player as well, until it got to be painful to get a 90% on VerTex and nearly pass HotN. I couldn't care less about it being barless though, I knew there were others better than me, and I moved on, and use the bar all out now "even on 5-6 footers, which is so pathetic" as you say. Is it really so pathetic when someone does better than you on something with the bar? You're definately showin' no one up when you fail Pandy miserably because of not using the bar, and someone gets a * on it with the bar. How can you disrespect that? You have just as much right to use it as they do, they simply made the choice to because it MAKES THEM BETTER!
I couldn't care less about the using vs not using the bar factor, it's simply the fact that you cannot find the ability to have respect for someone who uses the bar. That's just sad. The game isn't about using or not using the bar, but about hitting the arrows on beat, so however anyone goes about it is fair.
Now as for my point of view on the bar...
When I first got to 10 footers, I was still playing at home, thus managed through much hard work to pass Max 300 on a thin pad with a C, obviosly no bar, being at home. After much practice, I managed an A, but as you can see, I got used to the no bar practice before such a thing was even introduced to me. By the time I got to other 10 footers at the arcade, such as TLOM, my first attempt at using the bar was awful; I just couldn't do it, and succeeded further not using the bar. Nearer recent times, within the last of my barless days, I made such accomplishments as nearly a 90% on VerTex, halfway through HotN, an 85% on The Beginning, and nearly passing Tell, all without the bar.
As said, this was near the end of my barless career; the pain was beginning to get to me. Yes, pain. Doing things like that is not a breeze, regardless of any kind of practice you put into it. Moving your legs with the full weight of your body on them like that hurts. After a few quite painful trips to play ITG, I nearly quit, just because it didn't seem worth it to me, all the pain. After much thought, I considered how, if I was so good without using the bar...imagine the possibilities if I used the bar! Of course, it took some getting used to, but I was soon on my way to passing every 12 in the game within weeks, with much better scores than ever, and am very near a first 13 pass for myself. At first it was no more than using the bar at parts of a song I found it to be useful on, but now I use it even on the easiest of 9 footers; not that I can't do them without the bar, I do tend to do better, though. I usually find a way to show people who complain about my bar usage them the benefits of it 
Seriously though...though I never disrespected anyone who used the bar, I never saw myself using it, and look at me now, I'm poopy better.
Thats all I have to say...
Last edited by FujiFlame on Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Brick Tamland(LoveRevenG)
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Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Location: NC |
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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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| 27. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have a problem with people using it. I just think it looks ugly and takes the athleticism (yes, athleticism) out of the game.
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Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine. |
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diddrstrait
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Joined: 01 Jan 2004
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| 28. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | takes the athleticism (yes, athleticism) out of the game. |
how's that? because harder steps are more possible with the use of it? I guess a sprinter who wears shoes isn't a very good athelete then, eh? |
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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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| 29. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Syncognition wrote: | | Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | takes the athleticism (yes, athleticism) out of the game. |
how's that? because harder steps are more possible with the use of it? I guess a sprinter who wears shoes isn't a very good athelete then, eh? |
Um, less fatigue, sharper control over your steps, and the removal of the game's requirement for good balance when playing without a bar? That, and I'm willing to bet you that sprintwork requires slightly more stamina than pressing arrows in a confined area.
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Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine. |
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diddrstrait
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Joined: 01 Jan 2004
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| 30. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ghetto Overlord wrote: |
Um, less fatigue, sharper control over your steps, and the removal of the game's requirement for good balance when playing without a bar? |
I fail to see how any of this makes the bar a bad thing. The bar HAS been on DDR and ITG machines since they have existed. It is an option all players have much like choosing whether you want to wear long pants or shorts when you play. And I defy anyone to honestly say that they aren't at least a bit winded after playing a 13 with the bar.
| Quote: | | That, and I'm willing to bet you that sprintwork requires slightly more stamina than pressing arrows in a confined area. |
On the other hand, shoes did NOT exist at the advent of running. Also, not all athletes need "stamina" to be athletes. What are golfers if not athletes? Are you saying that they are poor athletes because they choose to use a lighter golf club than one of their fellow players? I am confused by your statement only because if you are considering Arrow-Stomping a sport, then you are also admitting that sports do evolve through time.
As for how "ugly" using the bar is...I'd rather see someone use the bar and clear a hard song than see someone swinging their arms wildly and failing because they wish to hold on to their "pride".
Using the bar is a skill that one must learn, and it takes time to get good at it...I daresay that it took me more time to learn to use the bar well than it did for me to AA most of the 10s in DDR without it. A good athlete isn't just someone who was lucky with genetics and has excellent stamina and strength, but someone who can devote themselves to learning new skills and improving themselves by making use of the tools they are given.
Raw talent is nothing without training and technique. After all, it isn't where you start and where you've come from, but where you're going that really matters. Sure, it all seems kinda silly when you think about the subject that I'm speaking of (arrow-stomping, lawlz), but the same holds true with anything. If you never innovate or learn new techniques, you will eventually plateau and never get any better. If you plan on using Pickles as an example, yeah sure he passed pandemonium expert no bar on video...but just imagine what his score would've been if he had taken the time to learn to use the bar. |
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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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| 31. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, Jesus Christ. You took a lot of time to write that, and I don't know why, because I don't give a poopy if someone uses the bar. I'm not going to go up and tell someone they're stupid for using the bar. I also don't give a poopy about the bar because (1) I would rather sacrifice my score for the amusement of those watching me (I am learning how to play freestyle) and (2) I'm playing the game to get the exercise out of it, so I'm not going to commit myself to a style of play that requires less stamina.
And also, I just starting playing golf, so let me reiterate, using golf instead of DDR: I don't give a poopy if someone uses better clubs and balls than me, particularly since golf, at its casual level is a gentleman's game is more directly based on the social outing itself as opposed to the competition.
Oh yeah, that thing about "wailing your arms wildly," if you have any balance whatsoever, it doesn't happen. You use your arms for balance, as can be seen in the Pickles Pandemonium Expert video. Wish I could find it right now.
So, in conclusion, I don't give a crap if you use the bar. That's your choice.
Edit: The forum blocks out the s-bomb? :\
_________________
Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine. |
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Rancidfish
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Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Location: Santa Rosa, CA/Santa Cruz, CA |
| 32. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | I'm not going to go up and tell someone they're stupid for using the bar. |
| Ghetto Overlord's Sig wrote: | | THUH BAR IS 4 NEWBS, NOOBS, NUBES, AND |\|003Z |
OH NOES YOU MADE A CONTRADICTION YOU MUST BE DUMB LOLOLOLZZOL
Anyway, I've actually found inspiration in the "bar/no bar" debate from my experiences in the arcade. A lot of anti-bar folks say "using the bar looks dumb"... but let's look at our average non-player and see what they think.
A guy I know plays 5.1.1 double heavy, sort of freestyling with lots of slides. He can draw a pretty big crowd that way. However, I have drawn a significantly larger crowd by bar-raping my way through PSMO double. People who don't play seem to be more impressed by someone doing something very difficult with the help of the bar, then something less difficult in a more showy manner.
Food for thought, I guess. I play bar or no-bar, depending on what I'm doing and what I'm trying to accomplish.
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PedanticOmbudsman
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Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Fayetteville, AR |
| 33. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Rancidfish wrote: | | but let's look at our average non-player and see what they think. |
Yeah, lets. In my experience, nobody will watch bar-rape for more than a moment, and most think it looks ridiculously stupid. I once had a big crowd of people watching me do Standard-mode songs on DDR in good form with a lot of energy and a bit of style (I always try to have good dancing style even though I wouldn't say I "freestyle") and I got some AA's.
The next person up bar-raped Max300 on Heavy. Most of the crowd drifted away a few seconds into the song, a few people look puzzled like "what the frick is up with that", and after he finished the song one of the group of three remaining people walked up to me and whispered "that guy sucks, when are you going again?" And this was one of the "best" DDR people (if you define "best" only as the ability to get high scores and pass high songs) in the region, who got an A on Max300 that day (which might not seem like a lot to you New Jersey and California people but which is very rare in most of the country).
I've had things like that happen several times before -- I've never seen "normal people" stick around to watch bar rape, not any longer than one song at least.
But, it's a matter of individual choice. Every person who puts his money in the machine has the right to use the bar or not. Just like everyone else has the right to yawn & walk away.
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J. S. Mill
Maniac Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York |
| 34. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | (1) I would rather sacrifice my score for the amusement of those watching me (I am learning how to play freestyle) |
In other words, you are playing for other people because you don't find the same joy in the game itself as we do.
| Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | (2) I'm playing the game to get the exercise out of it, so I'm not going to commit myself to a style of play that requires less stamina. |
This is a fallacy, first of all because by that standard you ought to play hitting a jump for every step (it would take more energy and be more of a workout!). Second, because although you may not know it yet, by letting you play harder songs more rapidly in succession, the bar almost always increases your stamina immesaurably and leads you to burn far more calories.
| PedanticOmbudsman wrote: | | (which might not seem like a lot to you New Jersey and California people but which is very rare in most of the country). |
Actually there have got to be at least ten people per state who can AA 300 by now.
Ultimately both Ghetto and Pedantic have completely missed the point of the thread. The thread's question was: "Do you need to use the bar to get good scores on ITG?" With only a few song exceptions, the answer is just yes. The question was not: "Do you look better with or without using the bar" (although watch JSB play Pandemonium and compare it to Pickles, then again...JSB is JSB and Pickles is Pickles [No offense Pickles you are a cool guy]). Please try and stay on topic.
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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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| 35. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:05 am Post subject: |
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WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
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Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine.
Last edited by Ghetto Overlord on Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:28 pm, edited 3 times in total |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 36. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:22 am Post subject: |
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I use the bar and do bar rape. I am currently at the point where I'm sort of dependent on the bar. My arms and hands feel awkward without holding it, which I find funny.
I bar rape as it greatly improves my scores. I am able to play on faster speeds (2-3x on DDR and from 400 to 600 BPM on ITG), which greatly optimizes my FA and playing ability on songs. It also allows me to play longer and has greatly increased my playing ability and endurance in that sense.
In addition, with bar raping I find it that it works your entire body. By actually being able to play longer, you'd be working out your body by doing that extra bit of exercise and game play effectively working out your legs especially. In addition, your upper body, arms and shoulders also seem to be worked out as well. After a long day of playing lots of ITG with the bar, I feel that not only do my legs and feet feel worn and tired out, but so do my shoulders and arms. It's sort of weird.
Bar raping doesn't help you lose weight at all. The actually bar raping you're doing is actually working out your arms, upper body and shoulders as you're putting your weight on it. You actually gain weight, as you're building muscle mass (if you do it enough) and you're strenghtening your upper body, which is good too. ^^
Also, I've started to use the bar now as I am able to play at my best with it. I believe it is not disrespectful at all. If two people are both playing against each other, the winner would definitely like to know that they won because they were playing at their best and their skill was better than that of the other person. For people like me, I play at my best with the bar on any and every song. Therefore, if I don't bar rape, I'm not playing at my full potential or capacity and also do a lot worse on FAing songs.
Also, bar raping doesn't increase your FA at all. It's purely your timing that affect FA or PA. Bar raping just allows you to pass songs, as less weight is being brought upon your feet or legs which lets you move you feet faster and longer due to that. However, the way I (and a lot of other people play), it does improve our FA. We can play at high speeds as we may speed readers, which then allows us to sort of "unlock" our FA ability, if you will. That ability is sort of denied to us if we're not able to use sch high speeds to optimize our own FA and scoring ability.
I feel that bar raping is not a handicap at all. Thus, I feel that there is no honor loss or gained by using the bar. It's just a legitimate style of game play that players utilize for play, especially that of technical gameplay.
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hello
Trick Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Location: CA |
| 37. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:16 am Post subject: |
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So ya basically the bar helps with balance and stamina. Most people who play ITG uses it because it's easier to read high speeds with the bar and helps with high-level songs.
If you think that max300 heavy w/ bar is less impressive than doing standard songs then...o well fine. I and many people don't believe that but it's your opinion.
If you think playing w/ bar is ugly then...look away.
To answer to topic's question, no it's not mandatory, but it helps a lot in many cases, especially with harder songs. So...give it a try.  |
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J. S. Mill
Maniac Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York |
| 38. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | W-w-w-wait, you attempted to refute my entire post and then told me to stay on topic? |
I didn't refute your post, although I could've. My sense of chivalry generally disables from fighting the unarmed. I merely pointed out of the couple of the statements more offensive to my sense of rationality.
Hey using a sarcastic and ad-hominem tone with the moderator - not a good idea.
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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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| 39. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
_________________
Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine.
Last edited by Ghetto Overlord on Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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